Intentional Observation: Mennonites in flip-flops
1 July 2009 87 Comments
“A little bit of dissonance is really required to have something
that will hold our attention for a longer period of time.”
- Pete Pinnell
Two things in the past few months prompted me to ponder the idea of contrast.
First off, I’ve taken note this year of the mennonites (at least that’s what we assume they are) shopping at our local Walmart. I’ve long had a fascination with Amish (and old order Mennonite, thus) cultures, probably in large part because of what seems to be their slower paced, more relationship and community based lifestyles. Another part of my interest almost certainly stems from the culture’s seeming affirmation of working with your hands.
There are two observations I’ve made with respect to contrast in observing the local mennonites. First of all, the men dress in such a way that you can’t pick them out of a crowd: Boots, jeans and t-shirts, but you know they are mennonite because of the lady on their arm donning a modest handmade dress, with a bonnet or cap in her hair.
Secondly, the women’s more conservative dress is often at odds with their footwear. I’ve seen them wearing tennis shoes for years now, but it was only a few months ago I saw some of them wearing flip-flops for the first time. This wonderfully jarring discrepancy scrawled a grin on my face that lasted all the way into the parking lot. The nearly neon flip-flops next to pale blue, floral, handmade dresses worked for me in light of Pinnell’s quote at the top of this post, and apparently work for mennonites too. Brightly colored synthetic footwear is simply at odds with the common (mis)conceptions harbored by those of us not immersed in that culture.
I wanted to take a picture with my cameraphone, but abstained from bothering the young ladies. Instead I searched through Flickr and found the fantastic image above, taken by Jizzon, showing a group of mennonite women, some in bright colored flip-flops (click on the image to go to the Flickr page where you can enlarge it). The clothing contrast in Jizzon’s photograph isn’t as stark as it usually is in the Siloam Springs’ Walmart. The girls in his capture are wearing much brighter handmade dresses than I’ve ever seen the group in Northwest Arkansas don.
If you’re craving even more paradox, look at this image of two mennonites in dresses and bonnets on a jet ski.
Secondly, after looking through an album posted by a photographer friend, Aus10, on Facebook I commented as follows:
Interesting to me how so much portraiture (including wedding photography) in the past five years or so has been about creating contrast — or so it seems to me as an observer. The well-groomed subjects are placed in rough and rustic environments: Against decrepit buildings with peeling paint, along derelict railway tracks covered in weeds etc. Seems to me this is a new trend for the media, and one that I like (unlike this everybody jump up in the air phenomenon). Is my observation correct in your professional opinion? And can you talk about why you think this is the case, if you think my assessment is correct?
The photographer’s reply was more or less to say that the high school seniors, in the case of the album I responded to, see their friends’ photos or advertisements for Urban Outfitters and want the same thing. Regardless of these teen’s, um, less than intellectual desire for this aesthetic, I must reiterate that I think it works and works well.
My own senior picture was from one of those gimmicky old-time photo rooms (which is what I wanted it to be, although mom had me submit a color image from a $10 Sears sitting for the actual yearbook.) However, I would have liked something akin to this popular contrasty style if I would have thought it was worth it for my parents to spend $400 (I’m sure it’s much more nowadays) for proper senior photographs.
Just a quick note before I explore the rest of your site…
There are MANY different types of Mennonites ranging in style of women’s dress from jeans and a little covering to cape plain dress, black socks and dark shoes. Flip flops would be more common among some liberal conservative groups. Amish women often don’t wear shoes at all. I see bright dresses like these pretty often, usually among ‘Pilgrim Mennonite’ or ‘Mid-Atlantic Mennonite’ women.
Yes, some Menno men look like ‘everyone else’ but some are quite conservative. It all depends on their church. You usually can tell what type they are if you know what to look for.
I don’t pretend to have knowledge of such, but acknowledge the wide variety of subcultures within the Mennonite culture. My wife’s dad actually pastored a couple of general conference Mennonite churches, neither of which were nearly as conservative as the ones I’m referring to here. Neither of which actually went very well either; her dad was, well, much too evangelistic and outgoing for the liking of the congregations he shortly shepherded.
Point of my posts titled Intentional Observation are simply to encourage people to, if I can use a cliche, stop and smell the roses in the midst of our harried culture. Not making cultural commentary here, or not meaning to in any concerted manner.
I respect and know mennonites. and not to confuse anyone but there are some variation of beliefs. the girls on the jet ski seems to be some that are liberal on the action but conservative on the dress. I do not think they are holdeman mennonites. the girls and boy in the top photo of this site seem to be the holdeman mennonites. they live in moderate homes and have the average america additude. their church has a web site you can look and read about them at .. {churchofgodinchristmennonite.net/}
The Mennonites you have photographed in this post are most likely Holdeman (or Church of God in Christ) Mennonites (and I am likely related to them as my family is Holdeman and there are not a very large number). The Elders of the different church congregations will often change the rules about certain elements of dress. Some families within the church will also make certain allowances.
I would like to point out that the Amish broke off from the Mennonite church in the 1600′s while the Holdeman’s broke off in the 1800′s. Both groups are fundamentalists of sorts, believing the original church had become too modern.
umm, ya, you cant be a holdeman cuz i am and theres no such thing as “elders”. my amish cousins have “elders” and there is a bigger amount of us than you obviously think. thankyou
I was thinking they looked very very familiar. They look a lot like my cousins.
Emily just because he mentions elders doesn’t mean he isn’t related to mennonites. That’s my relationship, I am related. Most of my cousins.. my sister all of my ancestry (mother and father) which my sister and I have tracked back to the beginning to mid 17th century are all mennonites.
But I couldn’t tell ya if they have elders or not.
I will tell you I am of the first of my tribe not to be mennonite.. haha
The group of Mennonnites with the black benie cap called a “tie down” is the Holdemans, officially known as the Church of God in Christ, Mennonite. The hair is folded, not rolled into a bun, and the tie down is pinned into place. The actual covering is almost triangular in shape, but has some curavature at the top, the longest side. A most unnatural covering, and dissimillar as compaired to the general population of covering Mennonites. Up until the 1920s a shall was worn, but slowly this particular style of day ware headcovering took root. The Church body has considered other styles, but this particular style has remained in favor, a general vote takes place. One should note, that Holdeman women have the right to vote unlike some of the Fellowship Mennonites that split from General Conference in the 1950s where only men vote. This group of Mennonites were in Russia and the black style is from that region. There are Old Colony Mennonites that ended up in Mexico, that wear a triangular scarf that hangs in the back that covers the hair; this group origionally from Canada was from the same region in Russian. Both having migrated in the 1860-70s.
This “tie down” you speak of is actually called a dakj (pronounced “doke)… and there are no real church rules about how the hair is placed under it. Different “fashions” can be found in different regions… Canada, the Midwest, the Southeast, etc.
shes talking about the the holdeman mennonites. all the holdemans have the same coverings so you must be confused cuz we dont call it that name, whatever it means. that must be some other kind of mennonite, like, old order or something!
Hey emily I’m kinda curious as to who you are. I am a mennonite and have many holdeman cousins and friends and a few amish cousins. I used to live in Belleville, Pa
well, um.. My name is Emily Kramer. and im from Jamesport, MO. All of my cousins are amish cept two from my moms side.
ok i just wanted to say im sorry for lying. i lied about my name an where im from cuz i wasnt really comfortable giving it out. im really sorry i lied but i just dont think i shuld tell yu. =( emily is a fake name. sorry
Hmm We always just referred to them as “coverings.”
Brian Peachey.. I have a cousin who married an ex amish gentleman from belleville, pa any relation? My cousin is a holdeman and they now reside in Moundridge, ks.
His name is Seal peachey, but i’m not sure i’m spelling his name right.. I’ve never actually seen it in writing.. haha
Actually the black “Bennie cap” as you cal it is called a Head Covering. We do wear a “Tie Down” but it is only to church and it looks like a big handkerchief tied under a girls chin.
)
I am a former member of the Holdeman Mennonites. This picture is very true to what the YOUNG women wear. Older women do not wear flip flops in public nor do the men wear sandals. I was a baptized member of the Church in God Mennonite for almost ten years. The colors and patterns of the dresses are becoming much bolder (among the young women) as the “church” becomes more lax in areas of technology bans: computers, cell phones and digital photo sharing. It is true the men wear “boughten” clothes from the store while women MUST make their own by acceptable patterns. The headcovering is only called a tie down if it is the one worn for church services. It is a babushka like scarf tied down over the ears. The young girls go to great lengths to get the hair that is showing to look as flattering as is possible and still stay in the boundaries. In the Holdeman Mennonites boys prefer the pretty girls that are slim and the girls go for looks and money. Same as the world. But they don’t date. They like a boy and if he likes her he goes to his parents who go to her parents and they go to the minister. If she does not want him she says no.
If the holdeman mennonites don’t date, how do they know who to marry? Do they pray to God and then God shows them who to marry or do they have to figure it out on their own without dating? Please email me a response. Thank You.
Well, often the young people do meet and may be involved in the same youth group, so in that way, the young people may get to know each other. If they are from far away from each other, like if one or the other of them is visiting in a congregation that is far from their home, they still may meet or talk to each other, or they may not (it just depends on if there is opportunity or if either of them wants to meet new people where they are visiting). Usually, the young people do pray about such a situation. In that way, one would say that God may lead them into marriage. On the other hand, if God doesn’t lead them into marriage, then perhaps they will stay single. On the other other hand, possibly God will lead them to be married later in their lives.
Holdemen congregations are very small, Susan. These boys and girls very often grow up together or work closely together doing mission-type work if they are from different regions. They also DO have social lives… groups of kids play games, hang out, have parties… it’s not like arranged marriages or something of that sort. It is far more conventional that it might seem.
actually, lots of congregations are big. especially the ones in kansas that have been there longer. we have “youth deals” where we play volleyball or baseball with our youth leaders. and we meet people through weddings and stuff like that.
im a 15 year old in the church. and no one i know is married to a rich person. its all about love. also, it depends on the persons character if they wear sandals or flip flops. my dad wears sandals sometimes, but my mom isnt a flip flop wearing person. so its not like a rule that all the adults wear just shoes. you should know that if you were part of the church for 10 years. thank you.
im a 15 year old in the church. and no one i know is married to a rich person. its all about love. also, it depends on the persons character if they wear sandals or flip flops. my dad wears sandals sometimes, but my mom isnt a flip flop wearing person. so its not like a rule that all the adults wear just shoes. also, everyones had cell phones since they came out. you should know that if you were part of the church for 10 years. thank you. sorry if i sound mad. im not, just trying to make my point.
im a 15 year old in the church. and no one i know is married to a rich person. its all about love. also, it depends on the persons character if they wear sandals or flip flops. my dad wears sandals sometimes, but my mom isnt a flip flop wearing person. so its not like a rule that all the adults wear just shoes. also, everyones had cell phones since they came out. thank you. sorry if i sound mad. im not, just trying to make my point.
oh my goodness im so sorry! i didnt mean to post it that many times! oops!
well perhaps you should come across more lovingly and kind, you are not being a very good witness for pacifism and peaceable behavior.
I’m not trying to be an a–hole, but the mennonites never come across loving and kind to the ones on the outside. My aunts all have their head held up so high I don’t know how the hell they walk. They pass judgement on people more then any other group I’ve ever seen. Walk into Lone Tree Church (between Galva, ks and Moundridge, ks) sometime during chuch services. You’ll be stared down by every single member, and many of them will not dare look away. One of the many reasons I don’t abide by that faith anymore. I am a christian, but I am not a mennonite.
Lol! How true! If I have to endure a function due to family respect, I have started to wave and have a huge smile for those that stare;) Then laugh to myself as they turn and start whispering.
Holdeman Mennonites do not vote. When they elect a new minister yes the women vote. But politics is a no no.
One more thing, very important: Holdeman Mennonites are NOT a cult. They are a religious order that requires a life commitment no different than Dominican’s, Franciscan’s, etc except they can marry. And of course they are not Catholic but Anabaptists which are called the third arm of the reformation. Too many lies online about the Holdeman’s being a cult. Not true. They are very sincere, consecrated Christians, more Christian that the ones calling them a cult. I was a Evangelical when I went to the Holdemans and they the Holdeman’s-are the real deal. It’s the Evangelical’s that can learn a few things about living a Christian life from the Holdeman’s.
Thanks for the comments. They’ve been enlightening.
But I have to take issue any time someone talks about levels of Christianity. There’s just something inherently wrong with that, assigning levels of spirituality within the Body of Christ. Some of us are younger than others in the faith, yes, but the faith is still in the same God and same salvation.
Thank you. My best friends are Holdeman Mennonite. It’s good to read positive things for a change. Just came upon this site. Thanks.
hello. im not a stalker im just curious to where you are from. thanks
Mary – have you voted to expel anybody from our congregation yet in a member’s meeting? And if so – have you shunned them? Because that is absolutely a requirement of Holdeman Mennonites when somebody leaves the fold. Families are torn apart. Friends shun friends. Parents shun children. Children shun parents. And the fear of BEING expelled and shunned keeps members in line – and the only way members are wearing a certain style of dress (the current pattern of the decade) or flip-flops – is if the ministers have not cracked down on it. NOBODY goes against the ministers and lasts within that church.
You might look up the criteria of what makes up a cult. The Holdeman Mennonites meet 90% of the criteria. And as an outsider who joined – you are the most in danger of getting in trouble with the ministers or CCC and getting ex’d…and then shunned. If you have children who join and then leave – you must shun them. If you leave – and your children stay – they must shun you. Sounds decidedly non-Christian behavior to me – and feels like it too – especially for children who don’t understand why their grandparents are suddenly angry at their parents and shunning them.
I’ll take an evangelical over a Holdeman anyday. And yes – I know what I speak of. My grandpas were both ministers in the Holdeman church – born and raised. My parents were expelled – along with an entire congregation – in 1976. Why? For believing that justification by faith was the real deal rather than worrying about how people dressed or whether they had tape recorders (a big sin in the 1970′s) and meeting for in-home bible studies (yes – those were against the rules then too). They were – in the words of the church – ‘consigned to Satan’. Were they shunned? Yup – to the point that we have no relationship left with many family members. Christ-like? No.
I have relatives I dearly love among the Holdemans. But I will never support what that church does to those it expels – nor those it keeps under its control – and I hold every minister within that church responsible as they dictate religious beliefs with fear. And yes – my holding ministers responsible includes my two uncles.
Why do they do these things? Because their Bible Doctrine and Practices states that they are the One True Visible Church. Yes – that means that all those others reading here who believe you are Christians? The Holdemans question whether you will ever make it to heaven. No matter whether you know that you’re saved or not.
And if you EVER join – and then leave – you are absolutely hell bound in their theology and doctrine. Because you know better.
Poor Emily – she’s a smart girl. At 15 – she knows not to use her real name. Because she would risk trouble if somebody were to see it and report it to the wrong person. But living in that fear – that is not living in Christ. Living in Christ is a fear-free gift.
most modern people dont know what a spanking is. but administered properly it brings pain both to the reciever And the giver. the fear of spanking has kept many children in times of temptation. but in a loving home it does not separate the parent and child but rather draws them together. as the child learns to submit to what he is taught he no longer lives in fear because he knows how he is expected to act and it comes natural to him.
the holdeman church does the same to its members. if it is obvious someone is not submitting to God they are expelled. fear of this keeps us in dark moments. but when we are living in Gods will there is no fear.
without discipline there would soon be much confusion. Imagine your country without the law enforcement. there would be much more crime. but when you are living above the law there is no fear of the police.
discipline is fun for no one but we need it to keep us in line.
Joel- I understand the reason for discipline. How does the holdeman church determine when a member is not in submission to God? I have been a member of a church where they have never expelled a member. I feel a little fear when I think about how a group of people can decide if I am in submission to God. I feel it is a very personal issue. In saying that I long for a fellowship that is closer to God and a church that follows the Bible.
For a lot of people it has to do with the “Death Sins” listed in Galatians 5:19-21. For example one act of adultery is grounds for excommunication. Some of them such as envyings don’t have such a clear dividing line, and have to be determined by the Staff and congregation.
For me I was trying to start a movement in the congregation that would turn people against the staff, and the devil had it so cleverly concealed as a worthy thing to do that I was blind to what it looked like to other people. But others that still followed God could see what the outside of my “Box” really looked like. Only after I repented could i understand what a fool I made of myself. That is why it is so hard to repent, and many don’t. Until I realized I was headed for Hell and begged God to save me I couldn’t even see how wrong I was!
Just like any parent with their children, not everything can be done perfectly in everyone`s opinion all the time. But if we`re humble like a little child, we see daddy as a figure of security and try to please him
I have been open with others about participating in this blog, and have been warned about the dangers, and how many have picked up false ideas and fallen away. I feel too now that it is not appropriate for me to participate any more. If you are a true seeker feel free to visit the website for Church of God in Christ, Mennonite.
Joel – so if you had died while you were expelled – you would have automatically gone to hell? Trying to understand this statement:
“Until I realized I was headed for Hell and begged God to save me I couldn’t even see how wrong I was!”
This wasn’t BEFORE you became a Christian. This was after God made clear his salvation plan – you recognized it – were baptized as a Christian – correct? So why did God have to save you again? Is this part of the ‘if you’re not in the church – you’re going to hell’ bit of theology that your church teaches?
We do not believe “once saved, always saved.” Being expelled is an outward symbol of what happened in the heart. If i had already repented when I died i would not go to hell even if I hadn’t been reaccepted yet. Christian life is a daily observation. That comment Until I realized…..should have been; till i accepted what the church was telling me they saw in me…I was headed for hell. when i accepted that they could see better than I could what the devil had done to me, then I began to see also how i had been led astray.
I am leaving this site now. if you have any more questions refer to the websight Church of God in Christ Mennonite.
Thanks for your honesty Joel. You have confirmed what I wanted you to confirm. That
)
A. the coG truly believe they are the OTVC (one true visible church) on this earth and that they are the only ones who can really ‘hope’ for salvation (ironic – because most of us Christians KNOW we are saved – did you know that?
B. The fear of reprisal and ‘getting in trouble’ is enough for a person who is only using their first name – and who knows if it’s a real first name – on a website – to suddenly stop talking with those he would consider ‘lost and unsaved’ – and run back to the mother church for direction. Faith? No. That’s fear.
C. you have shown the true heart of a member of the church of God in Christ Mennonite. It smacks of cultism – and I will continue my prayers that every single member of that church may one day be free from the ‘church’ – and living free in their walk with Christ.
Blessings.
By the way – if you – or others – ever find yourself on the outs with this church and being expelled and shunned and cut off from a support system – there is a great support system on facebook. Check out shunned ex-mennonites if you’re hurting from what’s been done to you by this church – or by family/friends still in this church. People DO care!!
To Sophia I see you mentioned consigning to Satan when we excommunicate erring members. To clarify this we do this, but we have sound scriptural backing for it. We believe that if we turn the sinning soul over to Satan to have his way with them,they are more likely to hit bottom spiritually, where God and the church is able to work a work of redemption in their heart and life. Also, fear is a good motivator if nothing else works, so we can all kneel at the cross, and find grace in time of need, and obtain the gift of salvation.
John Holdeman or Joel- I am confused. It sounds kind of harsh to hand someone over to Satan. Almost like a curse. I have talked with holdemans and they have never mentioned this to me. They tell me they follow the Bible and Jesus. I have a longing to fellowship with a true Bible teaching group of believers.
Joel – I read through the website and I can not find any references to shunning.
Snobird we do this to make it easier for our members to carry out the shunning. Its much easyer to shun when we know that the sinner is the property of Satan. I’m sure if you ask members of our church, they will confirm this, though it is always done in a members only meetig. This is how we keep our church pure and free from sin, the spotless bride of Christ.
From an evangelic and non-Mennonite point of view: Fear is a good motivator but not a good reason to fear (stand in awe and reverence of) God. It’s cat theology instead of dog theology: http://www.catndogtheology.com/
Joel suggested that I read the website of the Church of God in Christ Mennonite. I found this in regards to discipline.
A few questions. Is avoidance the same as shunning? Can the excomunication be lifted if the member repents? How is the shunning or avoidance administered? Spiritual and temporal are quite broad definitions.
“21. Church Discipline
The church is the bride of Christ and must be kept pure and spotless. Christ has made provision for the government and preservation of His visible church. He has given her authority through the Holy Spirit to interpret the Scriptures and discipline unfaithful members by excommunicating those who fail to accept admonition, become willfully sinful, or teach false doctrine.
Those excommunicated should be avoided in spiritual and temporal fellowship, the Lord’s Supper, eating together, and the Holy Kiss. The avoidance prevents spiritual defilement in the church and is intended to urge the sinner to repent so he can be restored to fellowship with Christ and His church. We believe this doctrine should be kept in love and compassion.”
I agree that Holdeman Mennonites are not a cult and also that we can all learn a lot from these “very sincere consecrated Christians.”
I think what one is seeing here is that young people dress like…er…young people. They will experiment with things and try things. And it would seem that a wise parent will stand by their child and 1) tell them the truth and 2) allow them to make mistakes. Sometimes one learns more from making a mistake than from doing what is right all of the time, don’t you think?
Please note that if this church was about rules, there would be nothing to hang it together. Each person dresses according to their personal taste and interpretation of the scriptures teaching on modesty and simplicity.
That is very inaccurate, Jodi. We as a people maintain unity. This includes requirements on how our people dress. We do not leave out detail on these requirements. We have measurements on the allowable height of our sister’s shoe heels, and our home sewn dresses must be made in a pattern that has been approved.. We do not leave these things for the average person to decide, as that would lead to disunity. Perfect unity as a people is what the scriptures teach us.
John I think you better take a look at your Bible. It never says anything about heel heights and clothing that should or shouldn’t be worn. we as holdemans seek to maintain unity of Spirit, not unity in physical things. we elect a minister with unity of spirit. then we support him with unity to meet other ministers and deacons to discuss the welfare of the church. as they meet and unite in spirit they are inspired to lead the church in certain ways. we supported him all the way so far. do we not now feel that to maintain unity with them we must do like they decided in the meeting? sometimes it has to do with heel heights, and sometimes it seems weird, but God has a special way of accomplishing his will that we cant comprehend. I choose to use my real name because if I.m wrong I stand to be corrected
So what happens if you disagree with a minister? What happens if you believe that God has spoken to you and the direction God is giving you is different than what the minister is giving you? How is having to have your God’s words ‘proven’ through a minister any different than the church your ancestors broke away from – the Roman Catholic – relying on a priest to tell them what God said or meant?
My God? My God is big enough that he can – and does – speak to and guide each and every one of his children personally. God first. No minister required. How big is your God?
I did think my light was better than the ministers. I felt they were not following the spirit themselves and couldnt trust them with a problem they were trying to help me with. I got expelled. That does not have to be permanent. They forgive when I repent. We need the Church for support. If I have a varying opinion, I am free to share it. But if there is no support from others it is sin to try and promote it. If my conviction is really from the Lord, others will soon be convicted the same way. But if I push my point I am interfering with God.s work. That is where the devil traps many. The Lord sends a conviction to a good Christian and he feels so compelled to promote it that he falls in pride.
My God is big enough to hold the planets and stars in their places and small enough to make a complex human cell. He can give me conviction but I will never be able to see the outside of my box the way others see it and thus need others to help me.
I personally felt the power of the devil while being out of the church and know that I couldnt stand without the church…thus to humble myself and live peaceably with people who seemingly had less conviction than I seemed like a small thing in contrast to hell. As I gave myself to that I found that others had conviction too and that we are all sinfull people in need of teaching
Joel, most of our rules are not actually from the bible. Unity of Spirit shows when we all dress the same, and our manner of dress separates us from the world as a people. We are to live as pilgrims and strangers, which is why we as a people are not wealthy and don’t live in lavish homes. Our leaders are anointed by God to lead us, and it is a sign of an independent spirit when we desire to search for our own spiritual guidance.
You have touched on an area that is tugging at our church and trying to pull it apart. I.m not here to say you.re wrong. I cannot understand it fully but our teachings are All Bible based. They should be anyhow. When there is a decision made that is just someone.s idea it makes it hard to trust the ministers. When they dont have support they cant effectively make decisions. It is a downward spiral. Your idea of obeying the minister as our spiritual guidance sounds shallow. If we do not get conviction ourselves from the Lord that parallels with what we are taught then we need to talk about it. If we go to the bretheren as honest seekers it will become clear wether we are wrong or wether there was something unsound about a decision.then the unity is restored AND you have personal conviction on the matter. On judgement day the minister wont be there to speak for you.
if you go to Philippines or Nigeria the people of our church dress much different eg.going to church in sandals. yet the Spirit is the same. the main thing is the bible based teaching of what is modest and simple in the area we live in, in the era we live. that is why some decisions are made on a conference level, some are made in an area, some are made in a congregation, and many little ones are made in our own hearts with the conviction that comes as we need it.
Joel, that is also an error. We ask our converts in other countries to wear the same kind of dresses that we do. Also, you are right in that our church is being pulled apart today. This is why at our annual meeting recently we addressed justification by faith. Justification by faith is defined for us that when we are meek and humble, and contrite in spirit, we are willing to lay down our own will, and allow the ministry to guide us. What you stated about having individual leading is what our ministers discussed at length this year, and they feel that individuals following their own convictions is apostasy. I personally gave that aspect of my life over to the ministers, and I live a carefree life knowing that they will guide me and my family. If I ever questioned that, where would I be? Everyone I know who questioned the ministry is excommunicated, so trying to have a personal relationship with God like you are saying is quite futile. The real truth is, being a Holdeman is a blessed life because we have ministers to guide us, and sort out for us the treacherous world today.
Together with church teaching and discussion with another brother, it has also become my conviction to abandon this site. Read the end of page 126 in Bible Doctrine & Practice..Obedience. Been nice chatting. Take care.
John Holdeman, I’m glad you decided to open up and tell how you and your people really think. Revolting as it sounds, truth is a powerful thing. Next time someone gets kicked out of your church, I’ll be more likely now to lend them a hand. With all due respect, you seem extremely arrogant. Do you understand the definition of arrogance?
The problem is the many women and girls haven’t been taught modesty and what Chritian Womanhood is.
Thanks for the comment that Holdemans are not a cult. All those cult comments are from ex- Holdemans (if that tells you anything.) I have been Holdeman and exHoldman and even if you leave their faith they stay close and good friends!
i just wanted to say this, ” I HAD NO CLUE THAT WHEN WE WEAR FLIP FLOPS IT SHOCKS PEOPLE.” the town where im from is so small that the townspeople are used to us so i thot it was pretty funny when i read that article. i mean, i go to walmart in flipflops all the time!
The reason u don’t think anything of it is because u r 15…as the yrs pass it has become more acceptable just like many other things
Hello
I know Fred Hightower in Winton Ca. R u related to them?
Tim L Holdeman
Interesting article. I know some congregations of my church who have problems with us wearing sandals or flip-flops. I didn’t grow up ever being taught that it would be more modest not to wear them, but I was brought up simply way out on a farm, and no-one ever told me as a youth that someone could be turned on by my bare toes. Or isn’t modesty the issue here? What do people who don’t know my church think when they see this? Do they see immodesty, or is this sight just different to what they expected to see? We don’t wish to be immodest. Phillipians 4:8 is a verse in the Bible that’s an inspiration to me!
The ladies in the blue dresses on the right are older, most likely mothers or a mom and an older youth girl. The girls on the left are younger, maybe not even out of school yet. My girls wear sneakers out when they play and dress shoes when they go to church, they have play dresses and church dresses and going to town dresses. I am a Mennonite from the Church of God In Christ Mennonite, or a Holdeman Mennonite. I don’t wear flip flops, but that is because I think they are bad for the feet. Emily is almost old enough to join the youth, and has probably graduated from school already at fifteen. I wonder if her family knows that she is on the internet and giving out personal information, our church does not promote free use of the internet for the young or the old. It is not safe to do that Emily, please be careful.
yes thank yu. i actually have regretted posting on here and wish i could erase it. i apologize to everyone.
And there it is. ‘Emily’ – who was forced to leave school after 8 grades – whether she wanted more school or not – unless she got permission from a minister – has now been admonished by a member of her church.
Emily – trust in the Holy Spirit before you worry about what any church or human tells you.
HE will not guide you astray. And HE does not need an interpretor – despite what the last minister’s annual meeting agenda said. HE has been reaching people for thousands of years and requires no priest – minister – or human – to say what HE really meant. Trust Him, child. Blessings.
Yes they are a cult, in that the belief they are the ONE church. If you are baptized and join the church but leave it you will be shunned and and have fallen out of grace, lost salvation. There are many rules that could be traditions but are not of scripture that can get you excomunicated
I find it interesting that most of the positive comments are coming from individuals that admire the Holdeman Mennonites from a defined distance or are members themselves. There are many great Holdemans, just like any other group of people. Their tradition based religion really has nothing to do with it. If they are not a cult, they come the closest I have ever seen without being defined as one. When you put the church, staff, or other members above your own family, IE: when your child is being sexually abused by an adult church member and you turn a blind eye just so you can remain in good standing with the church? What is that, if not a cult? They refuse an education higher than the eighth grade? What is that if not a cult? Yes, I am expelled and I choose to leave. One of the best decisions I ever made. Emily honey, you seem very confused. I know the feeling and wish you the best.
To some of the expeld here if any.There has been alot of feelings here but not too much bible teaching. To us that r members. We need to live like we say we do. Not just like people think we do or look like in town. Plain dresses and all. But now days I don’t see that anymore. I believe we should be good keepers of our homes , not messy. Greet people in town with a smile. And be on time to events and the like. These cell phones…….oh my we r know different then any1 else….and for some reason if ur the ownly 1 in ur family in ur congregation it’s a lonely world. This is to ALL of the Mennonite Members ….I like this site…but lets not sugar coat it. Lets be truthful here. Because that is how other people see us. God bless evry1
Timothy L Holdeman
Tim, what exactly are you trying to say?
As for the expelled, I have found great support in the Facebook Ex-Mennonites group, The Shunned.
If you google long enough, maybe you will find a picture of Jesus in sandles, but I guess that wouldn’t have enough dissonance for you, would it?
Do you mean to say that you’re offended by my simple observation (now four years in the past), or that you are you not in agreement with Mr. Pinnell’s quote?
Whatever the case, Jesus in flip flops could be a very interesting juxtaposition, and I imagine you’re right: Someone’s probably already cobbled that imagery together and posted it somewhere on the interwebs.
Don’t forget the purple robe while you’re at it…I’m not offended and I’m more than 100% in agreement with the quote.
Jesus reads our hearts…. I don’t think he is really that interested what kind of clothes or shoes we wear! As long as we are modest and dress according to his standard. If we dress really PLAIN doesn’t mean we are saved! Out of our heart our actions show! We have to seek Him first and he will show us His will. A true Christian will not Judge someone by their dress but if our dress is not in step with the spirit it will show. I Have seen a very concecrated(mennonite) Christian man in flip flops. It was HOT and made since to me….
I have a question it seems to me like the holdemans are leaving some of the principles that they once held dear.. for they say photos are wrong because they can become a god to you? But its ok to have a smart phone and use the camera on it to promote their business? What about faith in God and trusting Him to supply their needs?! I wonder will this church stand if they don’t stand up for what they say is biblical? Are they making excuses for to justify their actions? And are they really different than the nominal christian of today? the confused christian
To answer your question, the Holdemans do not shun technology, as long as you use it constructively, such as e-mailing your peers, making business plans, etc. To add to the whole smart phone thing, Holdemans also watch educational and constructional documentaries when needed. The bad thing Holdemans see in technology is improper use such as for entertainment, etc., which can detract a person from spiritual growth. So, does taking a picture of a farm tractor, or a building detracting someone from spiritual growth if they want to show their friends what they do? No.
The Holdemans are not ignorant and they realize that they must also grow with the world, and have found that technology could HELP them stay in touch with friends and family.
Although, you may argue that they could also be susceptible to “worldly” possessions, and this is true. However, the Holy Spirit and self-control is what guides them from determining what is right and wrong.
The main point of technology use is to determine whether usage can detract spiritual growth or not.
I hope this makes sense to you.
I am a Holdeman and agree. 200 Years ago it seems like there was fewer temptations. There may or may not have been. The problem now, is that there are constantly new things to buy and places to go. That is what increases the challenge of our day. The smart phone becomes available. Should we or not… It has many good uses, but does the bad outway the good? Too many young people were ensnared by the evils of social media and was basically prohibited by the church. Now many young people use seemingly harmless forms such as Whatsapp. Is this a falling backwards, or is it a slower approach so we aren’t overwhelmed by the dangers as we face one at a time?
When I buy any item, there are many things I can’t understand. But God can, and through the Holy Spirit, he gives direction with quiet nudges. I was looking at a pickup a while back that I thought was too fancy for me and would make me proud. But for some reason it seemed like the right truck to buy. Eventually I bought it, and it actually humbled me to drive it because i felt unworthy to have something that nice. If I drive through a distant town where noone knows me, they might think a proud person drives that truck. But I believe that in my home town, if my attitude is truly right, the people looking on will not see a fancy truck, but a gentleman.
This is a little of how the spirit works. And thats why people looking on are confused with the way we dress and conduct ourselves.
Also we are sinners just like everyone else. And God takes time to work with each person individually. So we are making mistakes, but that is the purpose of God and the Church, to work with those wrongs and improve.
To all of you who think you know so much about the holdeman mennonites, you really don’t know anything except what we want you to see. We have meetings that are closed to all but members, and that’s where we make the rules about what is acceptable to God..Join us, and your view of our quaintness will be replaced by the understanding that we are the One True Church.
I did. I was in those meetings. I know exactly what you believe. Your post reeks of arrogance. Show me where in the Bible it says Holdeman Mennonites are the “One True Church” or where it is God’s will to hide your talents and not to critically think.
Exactly, LG. If this was FB I would ‘like’ your post. Sorry, ‘John’, you sound like the proverbial arrogant a$$. Change your attitude before you preach, bud.
You realize you just admitted to being a secret society? Something your church so adamantly condemns? ‘The world sees only what you want them to see’, ‘meetings closed to all but members where the rules are made’ … Those phrases just reek of secret society. Where in the Bible does it say that the truth must be hidden and protected from the world to see? If your way is the only true way isn’t it your responsibility to proclaim so all the world can be saved and not hide it in your ‘closed’ meetings?
I want to join the holdemans. What is required of me to become a member.
Snowbird. If you are a male, you will need to cut off your testicles and hand them over to the preacher.
I will assume you are somewhat unfamiliar with Holdemanism just because you asked the question. I will take a stab at answering this although the ministers are the ones who will decide in the end if you are worthy or not.
If you are comfortable being dishonest there should be no problems, but you will need to add a little conniving to that so if this description fits you you can follow this plan. As long as you say and convincingly pretend that you adore the Holdeman lifestyle things should be easy for you. You will also need to come up with some kind of ‘experience’ to tell others that you have come to the knowledge that this way is the only way to end up in Heaven. I will not take a lot of space here instructing how to draft up an experience like that but if you are serious that can be discussed yet. In this scenario you do not have to actually believe like them but as long as you can make them think you believe this way you are in. Remember though that it is tough to live deceitfully for long unless that is part of your personality.
I will add this, too, but place it in another paragraph since it applies to all options for joining them. You will need to outwardly submit to everything the preachers tell you to do, especially if it doesn’t make sense to you.
The ‘honest’ option may be somewhat more difficult, especially if you are unfamiliar with the teachings which I assume you are by the nature of your question. With this, you will actually have to believe everything they say, even if they are outright lies. Even that the Holy Spirit must not rank higher than the church and that He is not knowledgable enough to lead you personally. They may even use lies as a means to test if you are truly submissive to them. This option may be more difficult to get to the place of joining but is necessary if you want any semblance of a free life. If you are honest by nature and disagree with any of their teachings you will be banned until you get over that, either by somehow changing your beliefs or turning to the dishonest option.
The reason I say a lot about honesty and dishonesty is because I was expelled from this church because I was honest in my convictions. I could have easily lied and stayed in or I could lie now and get back in but since I can’t live dishonestly like that I have lost many friends and some family. Somebody earlier in this discussion stated that they stay close even after a person is expelled. As a generality that is a lie, but it is true in certain circumstances. This is also how I believed it would be during the early stages of my plans to leave. It seems that generally speaking when this is the case, the expelled person still believes they are the one true church but just doesn’t want to follow the rules. They have a good chance at drawing these people back. But if a person leaves for conscience sake, they are generally shunned to the highest degree. In the 8 or 9 years I’ve been gone from that church, I have been contacted I think 3 times by non-family members. During the 3 month period between leaving and getting expelled I also had 2 other contacts other that the staff visits which were to figure out how they could expel me. The dishonest aspect also goes into my excommunication. Most members will not believe what I have said here is true but that is understandable because they have been told a lie. I was not at the meeting when I was expelled but when I was informed afterward as to what was finally decided I was shocked. I could not make a link between what I was told I had done wrong and what the congregation was told I had done wrong so I was expelled based on a lie (but just to comment, I am very thankful as it was an easy way out).
to Ray-The holdemans I am in contact with sure don’t seem to dishonest. They work hard and I have attended their church for special occasions like Christmas programs and school programs. I understand you are now expelled. I am surprised that you would accuse them of lying about you. Why would they do something like that.
I understand when you say they ‘seem’ honest. You will not see dishonesty until you are a part of them. That’s just the way they work and you will find many people who would agree with me – even agree with me more than I agree with myself – meaning that other people have experienced this to a much greater degree than I have.
The term ‘accuse them of lying about me’ seems slightly off in this situation but I can’t place a finger on the problem so maybe that is the case. I do want to clarify that what they told the congregation about me seems to be different than what they told me. And again, from personal experience, i could have lied, or i could lie now and be in their graces so that tells me that they despise honesty and support dishonesty as long as it supports their agenda and makes them look good. other people will have different experiences but generally they will do anything necessary to make themselves appear good and to hide anything that will make them look bad – after all they need to do everything possible to uphold the one true church image and if faults are apparent that image will be tarnished.
They used Bible verses against me that I hold dear and had never before had them used against me. That is what was so shocking to me. They may have said some things in church that they had told me but that never came up in our conversation as to why they finally expelled me. I suppose a reason they may have fudged the truth was because they told me I had to be expelled because I had observed the death sin of remembering Christs death (communion) and since there is no scripture to support that (on the contrary commands it) they had to come up with some other charge that they could attach scripture to but didn’t tell me those charges before hand and I fully agree with the scriptures that were using against me. This makes me seriously wonder how many people I supported expelling because the preachers were deceiptful and didn’t disclose all information that would have gone against their agenda.
I also wanted to add before but was in a hurry … you may have noticed how they pride themselves on unity but even in this short discussion you can see that the Holdemans here are condemning each other for lying about how things are done. The reason they do this is that there are so many different experiences and practises throughout the conference that the unity issue is a joke, yet the ‘proof’ that they are the sole holders of truth is because they are so unified. This was one issue that helped open my eyes to their true practises. I grew up in an area ‘that allowed flip-flops’ so to speak (was quite liberal) and I couldn’t get myself to condemn and shun others because they were doing things that I was allowed to do with a clear conscience.
I just want to warn you that if you want to live even a seemingly happy life with them you must be absolutely 100% submitted to them – even to the point of placing God in a lower position if they require that of you. A leader in that church told me that even if he was totally sure God was asking something of him he would not do it without the church’s permission first. I consider him to be a fairly reasonable leader compared to many I have heard of. From what I have heard, if you are not of Holdeman heritage they will be so thrilled to suck you into it and do everything possible to make it appealing but will keep a very close eye on you after you join and be extremely quick to point out your faults in following the Holdeman tradition and use you as a scapegoat if necessary. If you can fully submit to them, though, it would probably be a good life for you. I do hope you will place God in absolute first place though whatever you decide.
Snowbird, Ray is telling you the truth. While yes these people are very hardworking…hard work is not proof of honesty in all areas. While yes many of them are “sincere” sincerity does not mean one has not been deceived or that one is not part of a cult. “Cult” for many has the connotation of devil worship and that makes it hard to see the “cult” aspect of the religion, that part of having to obey everything you are told by their hierarchy rather than the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. To call the religion a “cult” is not to say it has no good qualities or that all the people are bad demonic people or lazy or shiftless. There are many aspects of the religion that are commendable… but that does not make it less than a cult. When they mix lies with the truth that is the danger area. Of course they will support their own philosophy and beliefs…they have to to remain a part of the group. Does that make everything they say and or do right ? No…neither does it make everything they say and do wrong. In my 40 plus years of observation and being a member I see a distinct separation between “the religion” which I do consider a cult and “the people” which I see as very sincere, albeit ignorant of the truth at times, and trying to serve God to the best of their limited knowledge and ability. The limiting factor being having to run what they do through the sieve of the staff before they are OK with it. The fact of their closed door meetings to me is proof enough of wrong doing. Jesus did not work in the dark behind closed doors as it where. One could argue that point but if you search the scriptures while you find cases of Him working at night (John 3 Nicodemus) you will find that He promotes openness and being visible to all. As to their theory of “the One True Visible Church” I have never yet met a true Christian who was invisible regardless what “denomination” he attended. I have been to many different denominations in the course of my years and have found sincere people in all of them as well as those who only gave lip service to their religion. In that respect “Holdeman’s” (as they are known) are no different. To join you will find a testimony in action, to the words of Jesus to the Pharisees and that is the point of washing the outside of the cup so it looks good to those looking on while the inside is vile. (when I say the inside is vile I do not say everyone or everything that is done is filthy or wrong only that it isn’t what you would expect) There is a much larger than they want to admit portion of their members on mental health meds due to the pressure imposed on them to conform and comply (they will probably tell you it’s because those people are not in the will of God but what they really mean is not in the will of the church or the ministry) The fact that many of the ministers are on the same drugs should give cause for concern and warning. These things will be denied if you ask them, either ignorantly or deliberately, not all those who tell you something contrary to the truth do so maliciously many of them actually believe what they tell you whether it’s the truth or not simply because that is how they were taught from childhood and they keep their mind closed to anything contrary to their pet doctrines. You can’t believe everything you see or hear but if you should ever join their ranks you would soon know the truth of what has been said. Yes there are those who are excommunicated that are bitter and that doesn’t make the attitude right but neither does it justify those who “hold the avoidance” of their wrong doing. People justify their actions through misinterpretation of the scriptures all the time. If you look closely you will find that even Jesus was tempted by the devil in the wilderness through misinterpretation of the scriptures. These people read their bibles with blinders on and if their “Bible Doctrine and Practice Handbook” or the preachers don’t approve of what should be plain in the bible then it must be wrong so their word carries more weight than the words of Jesus whom they claim to follow. It just doesn’t come out when you weigh it all up. I too had all the mental issues while I was a part of their religion. Due to that they actually annulled my membership which is unheard of. Amazingly the mental health issue’s have cleared up now that the pressure to conform is gone. Do I love the people ? Absolutely !! Do I agree with their teachings and doctrine ? Absolutely Not !! What is being shoved down the people’s throats at this time is absolute heresy and apostasy in my opinion.
What has been said about the Holy Spirit being quite capable of teaching any of us the truth and guiding us without the intervention of their rules is absolutely the truth. That does not mean that all of their rules are contrary to scriptural truth. But it does mean we need to as individuals search the scriptures with an honest heart to make sure what is being taught is the truth and then to be willing to leave all if we really want to follow Christ. For me that meant being willing to leave my friends and family and that religion. God does make a way for His children and membership in the Holdeman religion is not “proof” of being one of God’s children, neither is approval by “the staff” or “the church” proof that you are in the will of God. I find it rather ironic that often the very ministers that expell people are themselves expelled later. That raises the question of “who” holds the “truth” ? And if one is found guilty later how can their “work” be proven as “Spirit led” in the time before those preachers were dealt with ? But God’s Spirit will not lead us astray ! As we follow the scriptures we will find the truth if we really want it.
I wish all God’s blessing whether you’re a Holdeman or not.
~Chris
I really like your insight as I know some Holdemans, but am not a member. Is there any way I can get a hold of you? I find this topic very interesting!