Comments for The Aesthetic Elevator

Comment on Intentional Observation: Mennonites in flip-flops by Will

Will — Mon, 13 May 2013 23:54:22 +0000

I really like your insight as I know some Holdemans, but am not a member. Is there any way I can get a hold of you? I find this topic very interesting!

Comment on Intentional Observation: Mennonites in flip-flops by ~Chris

~Chris — Fri, 10 May 2013 23:11:41 +0000

Snowbird, Ray is telling you the truth. While yes these people are very hardworking…hard work is not proof of honesty in all areas. While yes many of them are “sincere” sincerity does not mean one has not been deceived or that one is not part of a cult. “Cult” for many has the connotation of devil worship and that makes it hard to see the “cult” aspect of the religion, that part of having to obey everything you are told by their hierarchy rather than the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. To call the religion a “cult” is not to say it has no good qualities or that all the people are bad demonic people or lazy or shiftless. There are many aspects of the religion that are commendable… but that does not make it less than a cult. When they mix lies with the truth that is the danger area. Of course they will support their own philosophy and beliefs…they have to to remain a part of the group. Does that make everything they say and or do right ? No…neither does it make everything they say and do wrong. In my 40 plus years of observation and being a member I see a distinct separation between “the religion” which I do consider a cult and “the people” which I see as very sincere, albeit ignorant of the truth at times, and trying to serve God to the best of their limited knowledge and ability. The limiting factor being having to run what they do through the sieve of the staff before they are OK with it. The fact of their closed door meetings to me is proof enough of wrong doing. Jesus did not work in the dark behind closed doors as it where. One could argue that point but if you search the scriptures while you find cases of Him working at night (John 3 Nicodemus) you will find that He promotes openness and being visible to all. As to their theory of “the One True Visible Church” I have never yet met a true Christian who was invisible regardless what “denomination” he attended. I have been to many different denominations in the course of my years and have found sincere people in all of them as well as those who only gave lip service to their religion. In that respect “Holdeman’s” (as they are known) are no different. To join you will find a testimony in action, to the words of Jesus to the Pharisees and that is the point of washing the outside of the cup so it looks good to those looking on while the inside is vile. (when I say the inside is vile I do not say everyone or everything that is done is filthy or wrong only that it isn’t what you would expect) There is a much larger than they want to admit portion of their members on mental health meds due to the pressure imposed on them to conform and comply (they will probably tell you it’s because those people are not in the will of God but what they really mean is not in the will of the church or the ministry) The fact that many of the ministers are on the same drugs should give cause for concern and warning. These things will be denied if you ask them, either ignorantly or deliberately, not all those who tell you something contrary to the truth do so maliciously many of them actually believe what they tell you whether it’s the truth or not simply because that is how they were taught from childhood and they keep their mind closed to anything contrary to their pet doctrines. You can’t believe everything you see or hear but if you should ever join their ranks you would soon know the truth of what has been said. Yes there are those who are excommunicated that are bitter and that doesn’t make the attitude right but neither does it justify those who “hold the avoidance” of their wrong doing. People justify their actions through misinterpretation of the scriptures all the time. If you look closely you will find that even Jesus was tempted by the devil in the wilderness through misinterpretation of the scriptures. These people read their bibles with blinders on and if their “Bible Doctrine and Practice Handbook” or the preachers don’t approve of what should be plain in the bible then it must be wrong so their word carries more weight than the words of Jesus whom they claim to follow. It just doesn’t come out when you weigh it all up. I too had all the mental issues while I was a part of their religion. Due to that they actually annulled my membership which is unheard of. Amazingly the mental health issue’s have cleared up now that the pressure to conform is gone. Do I love the people ? Absolutely !! Do I agree with their teachings and doctrine ? Absolutely Not !! What is being shoved down the people’s throats at this time is absolute heresy and apostasy in my opinion.
What has been said about the Holy Spirit being quite capable of teaching any of us the truth and guiding us without the intervention of their rules is absolutely the truth. That does not mean that all of their rules are contrary to scriptural truth. But it does mean we need to as individuals search the scriptures with an honest heart to make sure what is being taught is the truth and then to be willing to leave all if we really want to follow Christ. For me that meant being willing to leave my friends and family and that religion. God does make a way for His children and membership in the Holdeman religion is not “proof” of being one of God’s children, neither is approval by “the staff” or “the church” proof that you are in the will of God. I find it rather ironic that often the very ministers that expell people are themselves expelled later. That raises the question of “who” holds the “truth” ? And if one is found guilty later how can their “work” be proven as “Spirit led” in the time before those preachers were dealt with ? But God’s Spirit will not lead us astray ! As we follow the scriptures we will find the truth if we really want it.
I wish all God’s blessing whether you’re a Holdeman or not.

~Chris

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Comment on Intentional Observation: Mennonites in flip-flops by Mother Teressa

Mother Teressa — Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:02:26 +0000

John Holdeman, I’m glad you decided to open up and tell how you and your people really think. Revolting as it sounds, truth is a powerful thing. Next time someone gets kicked out of your church, I’ll be more likely now to lend them a hand. With all due respect, you seem extremely arrogant. Do you understand the definition of arrogance?

Comment on Intentional Observation: Mennonites in flip-flops by Snowbird

Snowbird — Thu, 25 Apr 2013 21:27:51 +0000

Joel suggested that I read the website of the Church of God in Christ Mennonite. I found this in regards to discipline.
A few questions. Is avoidance the same as shunning? Can the excomunication be lifted if the member repents? How is the shunning or avoidance administered? Spiritual and temporal are quite broad definitions.

“21. Church Discipline

The church is the bride of Christ and must be kept pure and spotless. Christ has made provision for the government and preservation of His visible church. He has given her authority through the Holy Spirit to interpret the Scriptures and discipline unfaithful members by excommunicating those who fail to accept admonition, become willfully sinful, or teach false doctrine.

Those excommunicated should be avoided in spiritual and temporal fellowship, the Lord’s Supper, eating together, and the Holy Kiss. The avoidance prevents spiritual defilement in the church and is intended to urge the sinner to repent so he can be restored to fellowship with Christ and His church. We believe this doctrine should be kept in love and compassion.”

Comment on Intentional Observation: Mennonites in flip-flops by LG

LG — Wed, 24 Apr 2013 18:00:41 +0000

Lol! How true! If I have to endure a function due to family respect, I have started to wave and have a huge smile for those that stare;) Then laugh to myself as they turn and start whispering.

Comment on Intentional Observation: Mennonites in flip-flops by pcNielsen

pcNielsen — Wed, 24 Apr 2013 16:43:38 +0000

From an evangelic and non-Mennonite point of view: Fear is a good motivator but not a good reason to fear (stand in awe and reverence of) God. It’s cat theology instead of dog theology: http://www.catndogtheology.com/

Comment on Intentional Observation: Mennonites in flip-flops by John Holdeman

John Holdeman — Wed, 24 Apr 2013 04:16:30 +0000

Snobird we do this to make it easier for our members to carry out the shunning. Its much easyer to shun when we know that the sinner is the property of Satan. I’m sure if you ask members of our church, they will confirm this, though it is always done in a members only meetig. This is how we keep our church pure and free from sin, the spotless bride of Christ.

Comment on Intentional Observation: Mennonites in flip-flops by snowbird

snowbird — Wed, 24 Apr 2013 02:43:41 +0000

John Holdeman or Joel- I am confused. It sounds kind of harsh to hand someone over to Satan. Almost like a curse. I have talked with holdemans and they have never mentioned this to me. They tell me they follow the Bible and Jesus. I have a longing to fellowship with a true Bible teaching group of believers.
Joel – I read through the website and I can not find any references to shunning.

Comment on Intentional Observation: Mennonites in flip-flops by John Holdeman

John Holdeman — Wed, 24 Apr 2013 00:22:53 +0000

To Sophia I see you mentioned consigning to Satan when we excommunicate erring members. To clarify this we do this, but we have sound scriptural backing for it. We believe that if we turn the sinning soul over to Satan to have his way with them,they are more likely to hit bottom spiritually, where God and the church is able to work a work of redemption in their heart and life. Also, fear is a good motivator if nothing else works, so we can all kneel at the cross, and find grace in time of need, and obtain the gift of salvation.